Many years ago, when I was a mere stripling of a spanko and Haron and I were early in our relationship, regular punishments for real-life events formed a not insignificant element of our spanking relationship. Those of you with longer memories may have read her accounts of said activities across at The Punishment Book blog; newer readers might well find them an interesting browse. It’s something I’ve also dabbled with with other friends in years gone by – although not, I think it’s fair to say, entirely successfully (for reasons I’ll explore below).
Yet these days, such “domestic discipline” (to adopt the scene’s perhaps slightly misleading generic name for such activity) doesn’t feature with in my life with my partners – and that’s by mutual choice: any formal structure of discipline and punishment for real-life activity (as opposed to the occasional more spontaneous whackings, or roleplaying) just doesn’t really fit the dynamic I have with either of them. Yet DD is something that comes up in conversation with people in the scene and on other blogs on a fairly regular basis – and it’s clearly something that’s core to many kinky relationships. And an observation recently that “domestic discipline isn’t your thing” made me stop and reflect, to analyse (as I am wont to do!), and to wonder why I’ve moved on from it – or, indeed, if I really (deep down) have.
I understand why some crave discipline and consequential punishment in their lives, in some form or other. The thought that there’s someone watching over them supportively. The desire for some form of mutually-agreed framework to guide their behaviour (or aspects thereof). The fact that someone cares enough to want to help them to “be good”, to do the “right things”, or not do the “wrong things” (however those may be defined, within certain small areas of their lives or more generally). The confessional nature of admitting errors; of penitence; hence of absolution. Perhaps, too, something of a desire to (in this consensual context) submit to authority, to cede control – and to experience the edgy nature of being punished, perhaps harshly, for real.
And, after all, we’re into spanking: choosing to participate in this style of ‘play’ (however real it may then feel) is one way to explore and satisfy one’s kinky needs. For some, it’s at the very core of their kink, the disciplinary regime all-embracing. For others it’s merely one facet of their scene activity, focused on small (even relatively insignificant) aspects of their behaviour – a different, albeit intense, game than (say) roleplaying in character. In either case, it’s a choice: a willing decision to enjoy an aspect of kinky life that the partners concerned can find rewarding, fulfilling. And different people embracing DD have different needs – what works for one person might well be entirely inappropriate for another; to generalise and assume that everyone wants the same thing in the same way is dangerous and patronising. Trust me, I’m not trying to do that. (Hey, I know I’m treading on perhaps sensitive ground when I get defensive midway through a blog post!).
I “get it” too in terms of the attraction of being the person who administers such discipline for a partner. The trust that the individual puts in you as their disciplinarian, the fact that they’ve placed such confidence in you to help them in this way. The intensity of the experience – from the clear mutual realisation that there’s a matter that will need attention; the anticipation; the discussion of what’s happened (scolding, and engendering self-scolding that’s often worse than any beating); the actual administration of the punishment (severely, where necessary); the caring hugs amidst the tears afterwards. The very vulnerability of the person about to be, being, having been punished.
I’ve been there: it rather worked for me. So why’s it fallen out of my life? Of course, it takes two to tango – but irrespective of my partners’ preferences, I’ve not been especially willing or looking to dance. Let me try and explain my hang-ups, or concerns.
Partly, it’s a matter of time and distance. If one doesn’t see the other party every day, it can be days or weeks before a matter can be addressed. Leaving something looming over a girl feels harsh; returning to it an age later can feel inappropriate (even unfair – “that’s ancient history”; “move on”; “forgive and forget”?). After being apart, I want to hug, to chat: interrupting that to deal with matters disciplinary feels jarring – an intrusion into all-too-precious time together. Tiredness comes into it too – it’s rare to catch up with a partner early in the day, when you’re both fresh; if it’s late at night after a long hard working day or week, then energy levels may not be conducive to wanting to do anything other than curl up, cuddle and sleep.
There’s an element, too, for me of “I am not worthy”. I understand those looking for disciplinarians don’t expect them to be perfect, and that those who do act as in such a role don’t make that claim for themselves. Yet for me, to sit as judge, jury, executioner regarding certain issues of another’s behaviour – when I have my own flaws, failings – feels hard to do. Assuming a position akin to one of “authority” or “mentorship” with others who I regard fundamentally as equals also feels strange. And when things are troublesome for others, I talk and try to be positive – yet I understand, too, that sometimes some people can’t move on fully until matters have been dwelt on and addressed.
There is a deep-seated fascination for me with this whole area – to the extent that I found writing a story (as yet unpublished) recently on the topic to be incredibly intense. I doubt it’s something I’ll return to: I don’t think I could conceive of any formal domestic discipline arrangement outside a close, caring, loving relationship – and, as I said at the outset, it really isn’t “our thing” with either of my partners. But it’s nonetheless an area that interests me greatly, and I’m really curious to hear others’ thoughts on what works for them, how and why.
Abel: I do love all this analyzing you are doing these days. It makes me feel less alone. LOL
I’m glad you posted about this because I have wondered…it did seem an important part of your life in earlier days. I totally can see how your life and travel makes it much harder, if not impossible now, not to mention less desire on your and your partners’ part.
I strongly believe that each couple will have different reasons for DD but if you give control over to your partner to be your “boss”, or the dominant in the relationship, then some discipline is likely to occur at some time or other. Discipline, for me, goes to the desire to “feel the submisson”. It reminds me that I am accountable for my behaviour and that I am a submissive to a Dominant/Top (who also makes mistakes but is nonetheless the leader of the relationship).
Ideally. punishment would happen rarely, but most of us are feisty enough to warrant being reminded of our place, at the least, and if done appropriately, confirms rhe power exchange (which is probably to the benefit of both people) while not causing resentment. If a partner needs to be punshed severely that suggests the person is repeating the same mstake over and over to warrant that. If so, one has to stop and analyze what is going wrong, I think. It takes work and time and energy and is certainly a huge commitment.
I couldn’t live as well as I do outside of a power exchange now. It is a way of expressing my feelings of being a submissive and makes me feel alive, loved, cherished and enpowered.
I come quite close to your position and If I analyse, it feels as core to who I am as the kink itself.
From very small the ‘will to be me’ was incredibly strong; punishment per se only became a battle of wills but making amends for hurting others made sense. Over time this became internalised into maybe an over-developed sense of self and other responsibility.
Yet ‘punishment’ spankings sometimes work for me for minor issues or to relieve guilt. I think it is mainly cathartic – taking pressure off self-imposed over discipline or clearing the air.
Key for me is that I retain control over when, if and how. So it is much more an understanding partner than disciplinarian role. If I think about it the need to be able to influence the outcome is much stronger than in play where I am happy to follow the lead. I suppose because it is much more ‘real emotion’ charged it needs much more nuanced sensitivity as neither of us know exactly where it will lead. Also it is ‘in the moment’ dependent because there is no guarantee that what works one day will do so the next.
Not sure that you would actually call this real discipline, but neither is it play or a fun whack.
Thanks, both of you, for such thoughtful comments. Both really perceptive
Vesta – always interesting to reflect on who’s the “boss” in a power exchange! LOL it’s not always the one administering the spankings…
Nic – I think you hit on (!) an important differentiator for me personally: “in the moment” works; a delayed response or anything more structured / format doesn’t.
Again you’ve managed to analyse a difficult topic with great care, Abel! I don’t think you have to be defensive at all because as always you approached the topic openly but also very carefully and with respect for different opinions. I often miss open and respectful discussions about what works for people and what doesn’t in the online community, so I appreciate your discussions very much! And I know how difficult writing about these things is. I’m still in the process of writing a follow-up post to the last edition of Kaelah’s Corner. I’ve already written two drafts and I will completely re-write the post again and split it into different parts before publishing it. Your post just gave me an idea of how to split the different topics and I will also add the question of DD to my second post. Thanks a lot for that!
Now to your question: DD doesn’t work for me for quite similar reasons as the ones you mentioned. I assume that it depends very much on one’s personality, history and believes. So, the following is only about my personal mindset and how things work for me: I am very likely to beat myself up for mistakes and it’s very hard for me to let go. But I don’t believe that getting spanked takes away or eases my guilt. In addition to that in my eyes no other adult has the right to punish me for my lapses. I am an adult, I don’t mess up consciously, I only make mistakes like everyone does. I take responsibility for my mistakes, I apologize if I hurt someone, but I don’t think that anyone has the right and the moral superiority to punish me for these mistakes. And I don’t think that being punished would affect me in a positive way. It could possibly make me avoid certain things in the future, but only because of fear not because I really want it. That’s why real-life DD wouldn’t help me to let go, given my mindset it would only be a horrible act of a beating and make things worse for me. I rather need people who tell me that it is okay to make mistakes and that they love me nonetheless without me having to pay for my lapses.
But I think that real-life DD can be used for different positive purposes by people who have a different mindset. For those who feel that getting spanked eases their feeling of guilt, it can help them to let go. I can also relate to the idea that being told off and spanked can help to change one’s behaviour or to get rid of one’s bad habits. Leia-Ann once wrote about a punishment spanking that helped her to smoke less and Pandora seems to be quite successful with drinking less alcohol. The only possible risk I see here is that one could also use the spankings simply to reduce the feelings of guilt for not changing one’s habits: I did it again, but I paid for it, so it’s okay… But the examples I mentioned above show that this obviously doesn’t have to be the case and that punishment agreements can indeed be a motivation to change one’s behaviour. I also think that DD can help to close negative chapters, especially in partnerships, for example after a quarrel or when one partner hurt the other with something he or she did. I guess that a punishment can enable both partners to let go of their negative feelings and close the chapter due to the slogan “forgiven and forgotten”. And finally, there is of course the feeling of being cared for that seems to be an important part for many people who are practising real-life DD, especially for the bottoms involved.
That said, Ludwig and I have incorporated some of these positive aspects into our play as well and we even used real-life offences for spanking scenarios (actually we only did so once, so far, but we are playing around with an idea for a second scene). The only thing is that for us this is only kinky play and no real discipline. We don’t have any discipline agreements and we only incorporate serious real-life events in our play in case the one who will be on the receiving end comes up with the idea. For us, the spanking then is the kinky equivalent of make-up sex and it only takes place when everything is already talked through. The scene itself then closes the chapter and is a sign that everything is okay again, we can both let go of our negative feelings and feel loved, cared for, close and safe.
Very thoughtful. I think changing your perspective on things over time is natural. What seemed right and effective early on might not work for you years later. Quite normal. I also think whether or not domestic discipline stays on as a rigorous part of a relationship, depends on why someone seeks it out to begin with.
For me it’s not about spanking but about submission and spanking may or may not be involved. The domestic discipline model I believe in and follow is a relationship model first and a kink second. It has more in common with a religious based domestic discipline practice than a BDSM one (I’m not religious at all). It is about honor and respect towards a spouse or partner, not mentoring or having someone monitor my life. I do understand that there are those who seek mentors for discipline and I get it. I just never will. I will only turn to the one I love.
You’re totally right about the time apart and administering punishment far removed from the time of the infraction. Challenging. Because of our distance, ours has become ritualized and focuses on concepts rather than specific events. Once we are together we spend lots of loving time until it’s time for discipline. Would I prefer immediate action? Probably. But this works for now quite well.
And there. I’ve commented and it’s not even 7AM. I take no responsibility if what I’ve written is complete nonsense. Why am I even up?
Abel: Oh nooooooo. That isn’t so at all! (For Pete sake, shush!!)
I totally agree with what you’ve said here, Abel. G. and I used to do a DD type situation, back when I needed all kinds of help in getting my act together. Like you say, doing it long distance when you don’t see each other that often is very difficult, but we made it work as well as we could. Having things hanging over my head for months worked only because he could make me nervous about them as the time got closer to see each other. These days we don’t really “go there”. I’m not looking for the help I needed when I was younger. There were times I’d ask for actual rules, and I appreciated his guidance, but I’m only looking to get spanked these days, whether it’s for play or some form of punishment for something that happens at the moment, like if I let my Brat flag fly. At my age that’s very rare these days. I want to explore some ageplay punishment scenarios more than I want to get spanked for doing something stupid or for “breaking a rule”. I’m pretty much beyond that phase.
Thanks for writing this post Abel. The whole DD dynamic has always played a key role in my kink but, as you explore here, another factor just as key is how one’s kinky self is not a constant or set entity, just like one’s character as a whole. Throughout our lives we change and evolve, thanks to our own development as people, our life experiences, things that happen both within and beyond our control. Thus the person you were, kink-wise, ten years ago, is not the same as now – and it would actually be quite strange if he was! For if we just stand still and stay the same, one could argue, are we really ‘living’ at all?
So that’s the old gittism section! I would honestly not have grasped this 11 or so years ago though, when I was first ‘out’ in the scene. I thought my kink was a set thing, and my journey was to explore and discover it. I didn’t realise that it would also keep changing along the way. Naïve I guess, but true.
In that time, there have been 3 men with whom my relationship has been close enough to, at some point, involve a DD element. With the earliest of them it was, for a period of time, highly successful, and gave me a feeling of support and security which I’d never had before, and which I cherished. Unfortunately, though, other elements were missing: I wanted this as part of a full relationship with a partner, and that wasn’t available. Resentment, a sense of ultimate rejection, tainted the disciplinary dynamic and, unsurprisingly, in due course the relationship foundered.
When next I found myself in a relationship with scope to incorporate DD, both parties were tentative, yet also drawn to it somehow inexorably. We were in love, both felt the huge power of the interaction and there was great will for it to work. That it didn’t both saddened and mystified me at the time, but hindsight as ever helps! In short: geographical distance proved too great a barrier, and I also first properly understood how hard it is, as Abel describes, to be judge, jury and executioner to a loved one, a friend, a peer. My hopes were unrealistic, but the simple urge to have this presence in my life clouded that. In any event, that DD element quietly died a death, but thankfully did not take either the rest of the relationship or the subsequent deep friendship with it.
Now, finally, I am enjoying the sort of relationship I’d sought all along: encompassing both the kink and the rest of life with a loving, full-time partner. But the DD isn’t there. Whilst it still holds a powerful fascination for me, and I would still ‘go there’ if the dynamic was mutual, my partner’s kink doesn’t include this. Sure we play at punishment – I’ll frequently get whacked with a wooden spoon or similar for molesting him whilst he’s washing up, or similar! That’s fun though, an excuse, mutual indulgence of our kinky personas (personae?). But I think he’d run a mile if I asked him to take serious, real-life responsibility for any aspect of my behaviour! He considers me to be perfectly old enough to do that for myself, and that to mess with it would mess with us as a couple. And I think he’s probably right, because you both have to truly want it for it to work. Otherwise it becomes like asking a non-kinky guy to spank you: the dynamic, the connection, just won’t be there.
And as for me, I *think* I’d still welcome it, but also know I’ve changed a lot from that weirdly-innocent twenty-something who first entered the scene. I *am* a lot more sorted now, more worldly, more in control of my wants and needs and destiny. In reality, right now I could well just plain rebel if someone tried the DD approach. I’d be too challenging, too strong, the submission could become a pivot of weakness rather than power. Perhaps I’ve totally outgrown it, or perhaps that’s just because I accept it isn’t available. Time, as always, will tell I guess! Whatever the case, the subject will remain one of fascination and debate for me, which I’ll continue to explore. Thanks to all who have replied here as part of that
I could write a book in response to this, it was so thoughtful.
But what I would like to do is respond to the idea of unworthiness.
I need to go away and think about what to write for a bit.
I don’t know you very well but I certain you have a combination of flaws, insecurities and more wonderful aspects to who and what you are. That perfectly describes the type of person who is worthy to lead.
More later. After I have thunk.
This is what I think, the man (or woman, I will say man but obviously it could be either) that thinks he is worthy is not worthy to do DD. I think the man that is unaware of his failings, the man that cannot say sorry or see when he needs to change his approach is totally unsuited for DD. He would be very dangerous and could possibly harm the ego of the person he led.
He has to understand how it feels to stuff up and understand how important forgiveness is, he has to set that example of apology and moving on. He has to understand how feeling scared or a fragile ego can lead one to behave in ways that are harmful or out of character. If he knows himself and his failings and loves himself despite that then he is equipped to teach someone else the same skill.
As I say, I do not know Abel very well but I do think that he has all the grace, kindness, understanding and forgiveness that a person who was in a DD relationship would need, if he ever chose to explore that.
I do not know why I am writing about Abel and not to him but there you go. Shyness maybe.
I don’t know…yes, Dd is really very different for every couple, so much so that one person’s Dd may not be very much like another’s version. But, as we’ve been doing this almost 6 years (which I realize is not so long), it’s changed from where it began. It started as solely him disciplining me over some gaff of mine, breaking some rule, to one that is now somehow more a thing between us that resolves issues, a way to reestablish our agreed upon hierarchy, a method to find our way back to each other and the place where we feel best together. Yes, sometimes it can relieve guilt or anger, but it is rare these days that I do any big deal thing, or that he would allow me to…we communicate better and catch ourselves more..and it doesn’t have to go down that path so often. And no, he doesn’t have to be perfect, nor do I, but because we both know that spanking as punishment does all that I described above, when needed, it is more about us, and less about him being right or better than me, (or we both agree). At least mostly, which was very vague. Did that make any kind of sense at all? Sara
@Abel – Thanks for opening up such a great conversation.
Reading so many wonderful reflections, I realise I wished I had known at a much younger age to have the confidence to ignore ‘labels’ and ‘roles’ and explore what works for me/us now at this moment of time in our lives/this stage of our relationship.
I think my earlier self might actually have been appalled at her older self’s ‘surrender’ but then there was no yang to her ying on submission and at some cost !
Reflecting, it is actually the opening up to myself that I don’t have to be brave all the time, or to take on all the responsibility by myself, that it is ok to need and ask for help, that is actually the important step, not the spanking, which is probably why it doesn’t always feel necessary. Not that I would pretend that the opening up to the vulnerability is always, maybe even ever, easy.
What A notices is that now we are both much more open to our feelings and there is less time when we are walking on egg shells around the emotions thrown up by the stresses of our professional and personal lives. I hadn’t quite appreciated before how it worked so thanks for the prompt to inquire.
Very early on, the spanking relationships I imagined for myself were what I’d now call DD. Back then, I wrote some cozy little stories to convince myself that being a spanko perv was ok. The DD in them was cozy and reassuring in a for-your-own-good, taking-care-of way. But the truth is that in real life outside stories, I don’t want DD at all. I understand that many people thrive with it, but it’s just not my mileage. I kind of have an authority problem.
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